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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 12:42:56 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pd57
Many men in biblical times married more than one wife, and without bothering about divorce.
If he did not divorce her, what did a man in those days do with the first wife?
He put her away.
The word for that in Hebrew is “shalach.”
It is different from the Hebrew word for divorce, which is “keriythuwth.”
Keriythuwth literally means excision, a cutting of the marital bonds; legal divorce, as commanded in Deuteronomy 24, permitted subsequent marriage.
Shalach—“to put away”—described when wives were not divorced by their husbands, just abandoned emotionally and financially as they gave their hearts to another woman.
They were “put away,” available if needed or wanted again; “put away,” reduced to unwanted property. They were “put away” in favor of another, but not given a divorce and the right to marry again.
It was a cruel tradition, and it was contrary to Jewish law; but men did it … and they got away with it.
Then Jesus came, and he hated this tradition as much as God did.
In the New Testament the Greek word for “put away” is “apoluo.” The Greek word for divorce is “apostasion.” Apostasion is the technical term for a certificate of divorce.
Apoluo, “putting away,” was not technically a divorce, even though the words were often used synonymously.
In that age of total male domination, men often took additional wives, and did not provide written release, required by the Jewish law, when they abandoned their wives and married others.
If a man married another woman, so what?
If a man “put away” (apoluo) his wife without bothering with a written divorce, who was going to object?
The woman?
Well, Jesus had some objections!
Jesus loved mistreated women!
He told them that this earth would go up in smoke before the law requiring a written bill of divorce should fail.
And he said, when you put away a wife (without written divorce), and marry another (while still legally married), you are guilty of adultery.
Moreover, she who is put away is in real trouble. She has no divorce papers.
If she marries again she would, literally, commit adultery.
The distinction between “put away” and “divorce,” between apoluo and apostasion is critical.
Apoluo left women were enslaved, with no rights and no recourse.
They were abandoned emotionally and financially.
Apostasion ended marriage and permitted a legal subsequent marriage.
In the Sermon on the Mount, and Matthew 19, and Mark 10, and Luke 16, it is the word apoluo that Jesus uses—eleven times in these passages.
In every passage he forbade apoluo, putting away. He never forbade giving apostasion, written divorce.
In fact, he demanded obedience to the law.
What Jesus is objecting to is the dehumanization and abandonment of women.
In the first century human rights were for men only.
Jesus changed that! Grace does abound in Jesus Christ!
These are the traditions of men that Jesus was always correcting them on, over and over again.
Why is that? Because that had been going on for hundreds of years. Selfish, self-righteous MEN treating their wives like sacks of excrement and the wives/women powerless to anything about it. But on this forum that situation mentioned above isn't even acknowledged.
As stated before: only in marriage are a persons human rights completely given up?
Only in marriage/divorce is it that the innocent party is to pay for the sins of another? {condemned for life!}
Only in a marriage is a person to endure all sorts of evil at the hands of an unrepentant, unchanging, unwilling HARD HEARTED spouse?
Only in marriage, if the person is a total fraud & liar & you've been deceived from day 1, well, too bad, that's life,suck it up, sorry, whoa is you, NO Divorce! {Yeah, that never happens, especially today huh?}
Yet you at the same time say that if you fear for life/limb its ok to get out, separate, which I agree, but if that person DOES NOT change as many do NOT then you just have to endure it for life, because there is NO DIVORCE! and all other such things that are NOT fornication, adultery, cheating, sexual in nature as NO provision is cited as just cause in those instances.
How does any of that make 1 bit of sense? Because what I've read here is that is EXACTLY what most of you believe & has been stated & defended by a few to great lengths.
Is that grace? Is that true liberty in Christ?
The Pharisees came to Jesus and asked Him why Moses allowed them to give their wives a 'certificate' of divorce. In this context the text means 'legal seperation', or as we know it, 'DIVORCE'....not 'putting away'.
Jesus' immediate response was "because your hearts were hard". Right here is an absolute that Jesus' (like God stated in Malachi), hates divorce.
Paul elaborates on what it meant to be 'bound'. Paul also states how a person could be released from that bond. There were only a couple of ways. One was death...and the other was if the unbeliever walked out. Matthew added that a man could divorce his wife he she was unfaithful...but still didn't break the bond and she was not allowed to remarry. Technically they (adulterers) would have been put to death if it weren't for Roman law.
If you study the context of what it meant to be 'bound' in marriage back then...it simply means what Jesus said in Matthew 19. "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate"
"let no man separate" is a command from God...not just a suggestion. "No man" inlcudes both of the couple. The 2 have become 1...THAT is the bond that is talked about. If they are both living and one of them sleeps with another....the bond becomes defiled. Even though having multiple wives wasn't considered a sin....it still defiled the ultimate bond that God describes in Gen 2.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 1:09:48 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
It says if she is divorced for anything other than sexual immorality. So, if her husband commits adultery and he decides to divorce her, the woman IS free to marry again because it is NOT her who committed the adultery nor was it her who divorced.
Since a man could have multiple wives...he didn't need to divorce her...therefore he would simply take a second wife or even a concubine. That would NOT be considered adultery providing he didn't 'put away' the first wife. 'Putting away' was just as bad as divorce and in reality it was just a technicality that men used to get rid of a woman and have someone else. Jesus saw right through it though.
Today is no different. Having multiple wives is still not a sin. However it is not God's plan for us. He desires each man to have only one wife.
If a woman decides she no longer likes her husband and divorces him, then she cannot ever marry again until he dies. If he has relations with another man's wife, then he has defiled 2 marriages. Him divorcing his first wife to marry the other does NOT break the bond with her. In the beginning (Gen 2) the bond made in God between the man and woman was NOT a civil bond...and this is where people get confused. The joining of flesh is a LIFELONG bond in God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
I would also state that even a woman who is divorced before she comes to Christ is made CLEAN when she comes to Christ. Her past sins are washed away. She is forgiven, and God has forgotten her sins. She is FREE and CAN marry again.
Forgiveness doesn't change this. A Christian woman who has been divorced by her husband could argue that her sins are washed away too even though she was already a Christian we she married him. The fact that a woman was divorced before she became a Christian does not give her a technicality.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Why some want to diminish the POWER of Christ is just unreal to me.
I have faith the faith that he has taken ALL sin away. That HE can and DOES clean these people up.
Why do so many doubt what Christ says he can and will do?
I'm not trying to diminish the power of Christ...I'm stressing that we need to be obedient to Him.
Christ does clean people up...you're right, but forgiveness does NOT erase consequence. God will forgive you for murder (forgiveness), but you are still going to jail (consequence)
So you are clean in God even if you get divorced...but the consequences are that you can't remarry.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
As for my comments on Pauls comments.....
A Christian should NEVER marry an unbeliever. God absolutely commands against it.
Paul's comments were for a certain time when so many people were coming to Christ. Paul would go to a new place and perhaps only one of the couple would become a Christian. That would leave the other spouse wondering if he or she should divorce the non-believer. Paul's comments are for these people....NOT for a Christian who disobeys God and deliberately marries an unbeliever....however....there is nothing you can do if the unbeliever walks out...
You misunderstood me. I didn't say what you are stating here. I said if a man is married and claims he is Christian yet commits adultery and divorces his wife to be with someone else, HE IS NOT ACTUALLY A CHRISTIAN. WHY? because we all know a Christian by the fruit they bare. His fruit in this case is NOT of the spirit but of the flesh. So, that means he is really an unbeliever and she should let him go because she can't save him and she is not responsible for the sin he has committed so she is free to marry again.
Basically the same thing you are saying.
We have to be careful here although I am inclined to agree with you. I too find it hard to believe that a man or woman can be so utterly sexually immoral and yet be a Christian...but there are exceptions....but these exceptions are very rare...and not the norm.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
I am just really appalled at the fact that you call women who are divorced "damaged goods". As I recall these are exactly the kind of women Christ shows his regenerating power through. Men too. Christ does not see them as you see them.
'Damaged Goods' isn't a nice term..my apologies. I should have just said that these women are off limits for Christian men.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 2:21:54 PM
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pd57
Posts: 166
Joined: 8/10/2010
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quote:
I'm not trying to diminish the power of Christ...I'm stressing that we need to be obedient to Him.
Christ does clean people up...you're right, but forgiveness does NOT erase consequence. God will forgive you for murder (forgiveness), but you are still going to jail (consequence)
So you are clean in God even if you get divorced...but the consequences are that you can't remarry.
Really ! So by your logic..............If someone forgives a debt that you owe to them .you're still gonna have to pay back the money?
If a judge in a court of law forgives your traffic offense {lets make it a small crime here, not capital murder], you still have to pay the fine and court costs?
You have people being freed but NOT freed? HUH?
Innocent parties to divorce paying for the sins of the one who sinned against them? For life!
Your logic is flawed to say the least, a total contradiction! Stop listening to 'your church 'fathers' and their doctrines of demons & flawed thinking of the Council of Nicea, Trent, Laodicea etc. et al.
Come out of her my people!
quote:
Since a man could have multiple wives...he didn't need to divorce her...therefore he would simply take a second wife or even a concubine. That would NOT be considered adultery providing he didn't 'put away' the first wife. 'Putting away' was just as bad as divorce and in reality it was just a technicality that men used to get rid of a woman and have someone else. Jesus saw right through it though.
I mention the EXACT thing you state here above yet you ignore what I stated in your reply to me re that post...............now here you use it to explain your position in another context? OMG you have some real issues with answering MY questions and concerns but just as you see fit to 'cherry pick' and use to back your position. Yet you do not address it until it suits your position?
That is exactly what the Pharisee's were attempting to do in the referenced post of mine above, AND the exact situation Jesus was questioned about and was responding to! {BTW_ its called context - both of the question by the Pharisee's and the answer given by Messiah Yeshua!}
quote:
'Putting away' was just as bad as divorce and in reality it was just a technicality that men used to get rid of a woman and have someone else.
Oh, so NOW they ARE 2 different things. Putting away and divorce. Yes, a technicality that allows them to do as they please and women no option but to 'submit to their masters' {and I use that term lightly, very lightly!} every whim or evil desire.
Are you kidding me!!
UNBELIEVABLE!
< Message edited by pd57 -- 8/26/2010 2:45:50 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 2:42:43 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pd57
quote:
Since a man could have multiple wives...he didn't need to divorce her...therefore he would simply take a second wife or even a concubine. That would NOT be considered adultery providing he didn't 'put away' the first wife. 'Putting away' was just as bad as divorce and in reality it was just a technicality that men used to get rid of a woman and have someone else. Jesus saw right through it though.
I mention the EXACT thing you state here above yet you ignore what I stated in your reply to me re that post...............now here you use it to explain your position in another context? OMG you have some real issues with answering MY questions and concerns but just as you see fit to 'cherry pick' and use to back your position. Yet you do not address it until it suits your position?
That is exactly what the Pharisee's were attempting to do in the referenced post of mine above, AND the exact situation Jesus was questioned about and was responding to! {BTW_ its called context - both of the question by the Pharisee's and the answer given by Messiah Yeshua!}
quote:
'Putting away' was just as bad as divorce and in reality it was just a technicality that men used to get rid of a woman and have someone else.
Oh, so NOW they ARE 2 different things. Putting away and divorce. Yes, a technicality that allows them to do as they please and women no option but to 'submit to their masters' {and I use that term lightly, very lightly!} every whim or evil desire.
Are you kidding me!!
UNBELIEVABLE!
I never once said that there wasn't a difference between 'putting away' and 'divorce'
The problem was that you were using 'putting away' in literally dozen's of instances and trying to take all meaning out of the context of scripture...therefore rendering it subject to interpretation.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 2:47:49 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pd57
quote:
I'm not trying to diminish the power of Christ...I'm stressing that we need to be obedient to Him.
Christ does clean people up...you're right, but forgiveness does NOT erase consequence. God will forgive you for murder (forgiveness), but you are still going to jail (consequence)
So you are clean in God even if you get divorced...but the consequences are that you can't remarry.
Really ! So by your logic..............If someone forgives a debt that you owe to them .you're still gonna have to pay back the money?
If a judge in a court of law forgives your traffic offense {lets make it a small crime here, not capital murder], you still have to pay the fine and court costs?
Your logic is flawed to say the least, a total contradiction!
You're not understanding.
IE...If you mutilate yourself and cut off your hand, do you think God is going to give you a new hand? He will forgive (forgiveness) you for the sin of mutilation, but you're not getting your hand back. (consequence)
You are misusing the word 'forgive'
'Forgive' in the context of divorce and remarriage is in regards to sin. 'Forgive' in the context of oweing a debt is different.
Oweing a debt to someone is NOT a sin.
You can't seem to swallow the 'consequence' thingy.
It's your logic that is flawed...not mine.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 2:56:31 PM
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pd57
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CONTEXT - CONTEXT_ CONTEXT!!!
read the context of the question AND the answer in the CONTEXT of the situation of the minds of the questioners {Pharisees} and the answer given in CONTEXT to that asked!
Thats the whole point!
You can't ask the question in 21st century mindset nor can the answer be in 21st cent. mindset and apply them equally back to the 1st century.
Fact is the 'traditions' were, put away- no divorce papers given back then and still continues today. Even back to MOses. That's what they were doing, legislating between the 2 schools of thought/practice on that matter. They were corrected in their errors. Over and again the 'traditions' of the men corrected by Messiah. To those people in that time doing as they were doing!
That is the CONTEXT of the matters addressed. That was their tradition!
Check it out and see that for yourself!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 2:58:39 PM
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pd57
Posts: 166
Joined: 8/10/2010
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quote:
God will forgive you for murder (forgiveness), but you are still going to jail (consequence)
I'm flawed?
You mix God and civil consequences?
Thats twisting it all out of proportion. But I guess if thats how you wanna look at it! Fine.
Were not talking about mutilation, were talking MDR!
Again you twist to maintain your positions/traditions!
But you are saying that God forgives a divorce but punishes you by no remarriage rights. Even if you are the innocent?
Makes NO sense in that context.
Harmonize all scripture to CONCUR! can't do it!
< Message edited by pd57 -- 8/26/2010 3:07:08 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 3:05:47 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pd57
quote:
God will forgive you for murder (forgiveness), but you are still going to jail (consequence)
I'm flawed?
You mix God and civil consequences?
Thats twisting it all out of proportion.
Were not talking about mutilation, were talking MDR!
Again you twist to maintain your positions/traditions!
Harmonize all scripture to CONCUR! can't do it!
So you can use debts, traffic tickets in a MDR thread, but I can't use mulitation? That's a bit unfair now...wouldn't you think?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 3:13:13 PM
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pd57
Posts: 166
Joined: 8/10/2010
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quote:
So you can use debts, traffic tickets in a MDR thread, but I can't use mulitation? That's a bit unfair now...wouldn't you think?
Mine are the judge, judging {forgiving] and the same judge NOT expecting debt to be paid.
You use God as Judge, and then go to another judge{human,civil} to complete the analogy. Thats inconsistent, although I see what you are saying.
But you have yet addressed what Isaid in my earlier post!
Thats the topic lets get back on track and not sidebar!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 3:22:09 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pd57
You can't ask the question in 21st century mindset nor can the answer be in 21st cent. mindset and apply them equally back to the 1st century.
The problem is that you are taking this to the extreme.
I agree that we need to try our best to understand the historical aspect of the 1st century, but you are going to far and literally removing scripture from having ANY meaning in the 21st century.
You have to give more credit to our professional translators that God is working in them to give 'less educated' people a full understanding of scripture as well.
Your posts are basically saying that if you aren't well educated and don't understand greek, that you will never understand the message God is giving us in the bible.
And we know that is NOT how things are.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 3:37:37 PM
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pd57
Posts: 166
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Less educated, not knowing Greek and 'trusting' church 'fathers' like the above mentioned councils. If I rely on other men to get it right ,then we may as well all just go be catholics and kneel to the pope! Because hey, who knows more than they. NOt even GOD ,as they like to say because they are infallible! NO thanks! I'll do my own homework. I'll prove all things as required me. I won't be lazy. We see what the 'church' ,kingdom builders have done to the word according to their own agenda.
I'm trying to make people think for themselves and examine all scriptural evidence and harmonize them to the same conclusions. Because God cannot lie or contrdict himself. That isn't easy to prove if one goes in with preconceived ideas and cherry pick verses out of context. That makes them a pre-text and that's what we want to avoid. look at the history try to understand the times of these wriitings 2000 yrs. ago in a world very foreign to us ,here and now and make them apply today. As God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
< Message edited by pd57 -- 8/26/2010 9:36:53 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 9:41:25 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
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quote:
look at the history
quote:
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Hello PD57,
Looking at the history and finding a God who is the same...
What Christians over the first 1500 years of Christianity agreed with your interpretation of scripture that says that marriage is dissoluble. Who taught that a man can divorce a woman and marry another without it being adultery?
There are several Christians throughout the centuries who wrote on the topic. Who supports your teaching?
If you can find only two or three for 1500 years, why did God wait until the 16th century to reveal that the marriage bond really isn't until death?
If He didn't wait then lay out the teachings of all those whom He revealed this "truth" to...
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2010 10:45:36 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
Joined: 3/15/2010
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quote:
quote:
Greetings
How about if you answer a definite real life question
Lets say Billyjo married Bob and both were divorced and married another for no good reason
Then all of a sudden they both found Christ and were born again
What would Jesus tell them to do?
LG
Hey LG,
Malachi 2:14
14... Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously
Acts 2:36-39
36 “So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”
37 Peter’s words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles[a]—all who have been called by the Lord our God.”
But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
Luke 15:7
7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
He the Wise Counselor and me... well me. He would know perfectly while I... not so perfectly. Those are just some thoughts but others could certainly answer this better.
Showmetruth's response was very good. Maybe that would be all that was needed.
How do you see our Lord responding? Maybe you could come up with a response that could also not be used by two homosexuals to justify their remaining in a "marriage."
Also, as the Huckleberry, what does repentance look like in the two scernarios from the earlier post. Is it more that simply "asking God for forgiveness and not doing it again."
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2010 5:28:15 AM
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Rooted
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I do not believe that remarriage EVER constitutes an act of CONTINUOUS adultery (as some on this thread advocate - NO. JESUS). Marriages that begin under sinful circumstances (even as adulterous marriages) still begin a new marriage covenant and divorce is NEVER a means of repentance. Repentance may be necessary when a marriage was conceived in sin, but the covenant formed must still be honored
Too bad that John the Baptist didn't know this. It could've saved his life. He could've just said to Herod and Herodias (Philip's wife) that they must only 'repent' of the adultery but don't sin again by getting another divorce.
Too bad Paul also didn't know what he was talking about when he said that if a wife gets married again while her husband still lives she shall be called an adulteress. He obviously (measured against your reasoning) didn't know anything about covenants when he ventured to say that no one can disannul or add to a covenant (Gal.3:15 & 17).
Question for anyone who subscribes to the tempory marriage philosophy which include consecutive polygamy:
True or false: A Christian man can have as many wives as he wants, or when things don't work out, provided he has them one at a time.
What is the maximum times a Christian man can get married again to someone else (other than their oneflesh spouse), and who sets this limit?
I really want to know
Rooted... in Him.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2010 7:13:31 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2547
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quote:
Many men in biblical times married more than one wife, and without bothering about divorce.
If he did not divorce her, what did a man in those days do with the first wife?
He put her away.
The word for that in Hebrew is “shalach.”
It is different from the Hebrew word for divorce, which is “keriythuwth.”
Keriythuwth literally means excision, a cutting of the marital bonds; legal divorce, as commanded in Deuteronomy 24, permitted subsequent marriage.
Shalach—“to put away”—described when wives were not divorced by their husbands, just abandoned emotionally and financially as they gave their hearts to another woman.
They were “put away,” available if needed or wanted again; “put away,” reduced to unwanted property. They were “put away” in favor of another, but not given a divorce and the right to marry again.
It was a cruel tradition, and it was contrary to Jewish law; but men did it … and they got away with it.
This is simply a modern reinvention of history that has NO bases in fact. First, "שלח/shelach" is the legal term for "divorce" in biblical Hebrew (it is the VERB used when speaking about divorce). Second, "כריתת/keriythuwth" is a noun and refers to the certificate of divorce; it is actually used in the construct phrase "ספר כריתת/sepher keriythuwth". Third, the practice of divorcing a wife without giving her a certificate of divorce was unacceptable to the Jewish culture of Jesus day. The Mishnah says that if a man did not meet his obligations in marriage, that a woman could bring her case before the Sanhidrin and they would beat her husband until he relented and granted her the certificate of divorce or he died from the beating; either way she was free. This issue was so serious that gave their wives conditional certificates of divorce just in case they died in battle and their body was not recovered, so that even in those rare cases a woman would be free. The Mishnaic law did not allow for the practice you have describe, nor is their any historical record that substantiates such a claim.
The practice of divorcing without giving a certificate of divorce is a very modern problem within Judaism and has come about because non-religious Jews now obtain their divorce through the courts and will use the granting of the religious "certificate of divorce" as leverage within their legal court case. Those who do this are still excluded from the religious communities, but the religious communities today have ZERO power to enforce their religious laws about divorce. And if a man is comfortable with being excluded from the religious community and his wife is not, then he has a huge bargaining chip to wield in his legal divorce case; this has become such a problem that divorce laws in many states have begun to address this issue i.e. requiring a religious certificate of divorce as part of a legal settlement.
In the first century, a Jewish person could not escape the enforcement of the religious laws because it was the religious leaders who ran the courts, and enforced the laws. In the first century, the threat of a beating that could possibly lead to death was incentive enough to prevent this abhorrent practice. Trying to transpose a modern problem back onto the first century Jewish culture is a huge interpretive mistake!
PS. keriythuwth is a poor transliteration, krithuth would be better, and if you wanted to transliterate according to modern pronunciations it would be kritut. The "i" is pronounced "ee", and the "u" is pronounced "oo"
< Message edited by benelchi -- 8/27/2010 7:19:33 AM >
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2010 7:28:04 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2547
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
Too bad that John the Baptist didn't know this. It could've saved his life. He could've just said to Herod and Herodias (Philip's wife) that they must only 'repent' of the adultery but don't sin again by getting another divorce.
In the case of John the Baptist, the primary issue was that the prior divorce was not legal because Herodias had written the certificate of divorce and had handed it to her husband (a practice that was not legal). Even today when someone marries without obtaining a legal divorce from a prior spouse, it is a criminal offense. Secondarily, she married the biological brother of her husband which was also a practice not condoned by the Jewish law. IF Herod and given her a certificate of divorce, and Herodias had married anyone other than a blood relative of her husband then their would not have been an issue.
This is why neither the Gospel accounts or the accounts of other historians like Josephus speak about the offense being that of divorce, but rather speak about the illegal circumstances of this particular divorce.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2010 11:35:41 AM
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pd57
Posts: 166
Joined: 8/10/2010
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Exodus 21:10-11
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2010 11:55:36 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2547
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pd57
Exodus 21:10-11
Context: This passage is talking about a slave who is required to be set free! To use this to support the claim you made is twisting Scripture.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2010 12:31:21 PM
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pd57
Posts: 166
Joined: 8/10/2010
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Twisting????????
It talks about marriage rights, even to one as a slave. Marriage rights are marriage rights. How much moreso for one NOT a Slave?
Do you even know what marriage rights/vows are?
and when trampled what is the recourse?
AGAIN I ask why a certificate of divorve is required if there is NO divorce?
Penalizing the innocent party? PLEASE!
answer somehing I've brought up in any post regarding marriage or basic human rights. But as of yet ,NOT one of the original 'core' issues has been addressed! NOT ONE!
Further, my trying to prove anything to anyone on this topic is futile to those not willing to answer basic issues I've presented. You choose to ignore the TOUGH questions!
< Message edited by pd57 -- 8/27/2010 12:38:02 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2010 1:34:22 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2408
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
quote:
Greetings
How about if you answer a definite real life question
Lets say Billyjo married Bob and both were divorced and married another for no good reason
Then all of a sudden they both found Christ and were born again
What would Jesus tell them to do?
LG
Hey LG,
Malachi 2:14
14... Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously
Acts 2:36-39
36 “So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!”
37 Peter’s words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles[a]—all who have been called by the Lord our God.”
But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
Luke 15:7
7I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
He the Wise Counselor and me... well me. He would know perfectly while I... not so perfectly. Those are just some thoughts but others could certainly answer this better.
Showmetruth's response was very good. Maybe that would be all that was needed.
How do you see our Lord responding? Maybe you could come up with a response that could also not be used by two homosexuals to justify their remaining in a "marriage."
Also, as the Huckleberry, what does repentance look like in the two scenarios from the earlier post. Is it more that simply "asking God for forgiveness and not doing it again?"
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
Greetings
You do know... that Mailicai had nothing to do with rest of the scriptures one offered...
Correct?
Many of us learn how to relate to what we read in the scriptures and can see it in ourselves by the examples; many have a hard time,
But it was a very simple question up there, and it seems one has no concept of the Law of Moses.
So I will be happy to lend some assistance
Important...
When we reiterate between the law, the prophets and the palms.... it’s always good thing to know what came first...
Because
Depending on who has accepted Christ as their savior... as opposed of Allah for example...
We were/ always bound to the law.... but now in Christ we are NOT married to the LAW,
Mat 5:17
That’s very KEY to remember there.....,
Like Jesus is our husband,
In like manner, for those under the law,
The law...is their husband
So In their language the law ....”Of” the husband....
(As Paul defined it in Romans 7:2)
....... Means nothing more than... the husband is ...”under” ...or bound/married, to the law, “= the FIRST
SO the Husband is bound to the law .... And as it reiterates the same to their wives AKA= wives of their youth being bound to the husband =, it reiterates after the same = and is always the FIRST
What this means here
Malachi 2:14
14... Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth,
Of thy youth.....It means....
When the man “came of age” ....the wife (was prearranged beforehand but given afterwards)
The wife was then “given” to the man “when HE came of age” = when He became bound/or Married to the law.
(In the likeness as it written in Genesis)
The fact is that THE LAW has absolutely “nothing to do with” God bringing them together....
this very thing was cleared up when Jesus; spoke of the same thing concerning Himself in Matt 19;
Marriage UNDER THE LAW is not an agreement
Under the LAW... the LAW made the agreement, >>>NOT GOD
Being UNDER GOD is under the LAW
And this was made very clear In Christ... as it is written
THAT
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
So let me explain what Malachi was speaking of
Malachi is one of the” prophets” in the Hebrew Scriptures and was under the law, not grace... correct?
In their language and culture Malachi was speaking to the men in verse 14
Correct?
To comprehend that phrase or the way it is written.... we can see the prophet was speaking to the men ......or to the “husbands” concerning the wives of their youth=
Definition
Is the FIRST wife, under the law, when they came of age.... and were bound to the law,
Again to comprehended the Law of Moses...
As mentioned above
When we “reiterate” between the law, the prophets and the palms.... it’s always good thing to know what came first... because the same reiterates after the same and binds the husband to the law the same as the wife was bound to the husband
SO....the law came FIRST
it’s important to remember... that.... “The law came first”
The husband was first married to the law,
Therefore,
All those other scriptures one offered in support of Malachi 2:14... are not relevant until one defines the first
to answer that question I asked above.... in the quote... Biblically!!
(.... which personally I would have offered in support of Malachi 2:14)
IS
Found here in Rom 7:2
Rom 7:2
For the woman which hath an husband “is bound by the law” to her husband... so long as he liveth;
but
If the husband be dead , she is loosed “from” ... KEY= the law of her husband .
SO as explained above.....
We can see that “the law” of THE/HER Husband.... is the same law that binds the wife to her husband,
Malachi back then did not have to explain all the above to us... of those things were already known...
Malachi 2:14
14... Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously
According to Romans 7:2
.....It’s just about... or even simpler then the first question I asked
What does Rom 7:2 mean to you?
Ill give one a clue... 
Read
Rom 7:4
quote:
Showmetruth's response was very good.
Maybe that would be all that was needed.
Let’s stick with the truth in the Bible... for now/always!!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed "obey My voice"
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2010 4:23:17 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2547
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pd57
Twisting????????
It talks about marriage rights, even to one as a slave. Marriage rights are marriage rights. How much more so for one NOT a Slave?
We know what the rights of a slave were, and we know what the rights of a wife (not slave) were. In the case of a slave, she came with no dowry, and she was not free to accept or reject marriage. The law you cited here states that if her husband doesn't meet his marital obligations, including his conjugal obligations to her, then she is to be given her freedom and is no longer a slave. As a free woman she would be free to marry.
The laws for free women who marry is different, they were given a dowry that was required to be returned if they were divorced. The distinction between the slave woman and the free woman is that the free woman could not be sent away without returning her dowry, and the slave woman had no dowry to begin with.
Trying to prove the points you are pushing from these Scriptures requires one to ignore the context.
quote:
Do you even know what marriage rights/vows are?
and when trampled what is the recourse?
AGAIN I ask why a certificate of divorve is required if there is NO divorce?
No one here is questioning the existence of divorce in the first century. A certificate of divorce was required because divorce DID exist.
quote:
Penalizing the innocent party? PLEASE!
answer somehing I've brought up in any post regarding marriage or basic human rights. But as of yet ,NOT one of the original 'core' issues has been addressed! NOT ONE!
Further, my trying to prove anything to anyone on this topic is futile to those not willing to answer basic issues I've presented. You choose to ignore the TOUGH questions!
I haven't seen any tough questions.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2010 10:55:27 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
Joined: 3/15/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
Malachi 2:14 (King James Version)
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
quote:
Greetings
You do know... that Mailicai had nothing to do with rest of the scriptures one offered...
Correct?
Matthew 19:4-6 (King James Version)
4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Hello LG,
I definitely see a connection and I truly believe that anyone with a sincere heart and open mind will as well.
The same God who spoke through the prophet Malachi of a covenant with His beloved became flesh and spoke to us of covenants with our spouses. These covenants do not end, they are for life, two "twain shall be one flesh." The "wife of your youth" is and, until death always will be, the wife of your covenant. She may deal treacherously against you but, if you are imitating God you will always be open to reconciliation upon true repentance. With Christ this is possible... and more.
He will not only forgive through us but He will love through us. Even those who are persecuting us. He hung on a cross and prayed for those who put Him there. Sometimes being faithful to a covenant spouse who is not faithful in return may be a cross one is given. We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings and says, "I will never take you back for I love another. I have made a covenant with another" Imagine if God did that to us? Do we not pray to be forgiven as we forgive others?
This is possible for a Christian, if we remain branches on the vine then His life-giving, forgiveness-giving, love-giving food will flow to us and through us. We will do His works. Including loving our spouse as He loves His.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2010 8:48:50 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
Joined: 12/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
Malachi 2:14 (King James Version)
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
quote:
Greetings
You do know... that Malachi had nothing to do with rest of the scriptures one offered...
Correct?
Matthew 19:4-6 (King James Version)
4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Hello LG,
I definitely see a connection and I truly believe that anyone with a sincere heart and open mind will as well.
The same God who spoke through the prophet Malachi of a covenant with His beloved became flesh and spoke to us of covenants with our spouses. These covenants do not end, they are for life, two "twain shall be one flesh." The "wife of your youth" is and, until death always will be, the wife of your covenant. She may deal treacherously against you but, if you are imitating God you will always be open to reconciliation upon true repentance. With Christ this is possible... and more.
He will not only forgive through us but He will love through us. Even those who are persecuting us. He hung on a cross and prayed for those who put Him there. Sometimes being faithful to a covenant spouse who is not faithful in return may be a cross one is given. We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings and says, "I will never take you back for I love another. I have made a covenant with another" Imagine if God did that to us? Do we not pray to be forgiven as we forgive others?
This is possible for a Christian, if we remain branches on the vine then His life-giving, forgiveness-giving, love-giving food will flow to us and through us. We will do His works. Including loving our spouse as He loves His.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
LOVE SO AMAZING
Bryan, I definitely understand this point of view. And it is true.
BUT the fleshly marriage covenant will never be perfect as the covenant with God is with us through Christ. And we understand that it is not perfect and never will be. That is the point that I am trying to get you to understand. It is Christ that makes us perfect and is perfecting us......IN THE Spirit, not the flesh.
Marriage to a man or woman is fleshly. Marriage to God is Spirit. They cannot exist together. We either walk in our flesh or Christ's Spirit. We cannot walk in both at the same time. When we walk in the Spirit of Christ, the flesh will come under subjection of the Spirit and then we are able to better hear God's will for our lives.
And I am convinced that God would not tell someone who is in a 2nd marriage to divorce that partner to show repentance. I am convinced that God does not work that way. He would NEVER tell us to sin as a sign of repentance.
Why the other side does not see this, I just don't seem to understand. It makes no sense at all seeing the way that God works.
SIN is not from God. The bible tells us this. Divorce is sin in God's eyes. So, if you claim that God told you to divorce, that is NOT from God. If you are telling people to divorce, that is NOT from God because God is NOT the author of sin.
It is obvious because God forgives you of the previous sin and has washed you clean. He would NOT and does NOT tell us to go out and get right back into the muck and mire he washed us clean of. If a person who is married again divorces, that is telling a person to return to the pigpen that God just pulled them out of.
I am praying that you understand this.
Yes, do not let them serve in certain positions of the body of Christ, BUT do not tell them they have to sin to be washed clean of sin.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2010 12:16:29 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2408
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
Malachi 2:14 (King James Version)
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
quote:
Greetings
You do know... that Mailicai had nothing to do with rest of the scriptures one offered...
Correct?
Matthew 19:4-6 (King James Version)
4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Hello LG,
I definitely see a connection and I truly believe that anyone with a sincere heart and open mind will as well.
The same God who spoke through the prophet Malachi of a covenant with His beloved became flesh and spoke to us of covenants with our spouses. These covenants do not end, they are for life, two "twain shall be one flesh." The "wife of your youth" is and, until death always will be, the wife of your covenant. She may deal treacherously against you but, if you are imitating God you will always be open to reconciliation upon true repentance. With Christ this is possible... and more.
He will not only forgive through us but He will love through us. Even those who are persecuting us. He hung on a cross and prayed for those who put Him there. Sometimes being faithful to a covenant spouse who is not faithful in return may be a cross one is given. We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings and says, "I will never take you back for I love another. I have made a covenant with another" Imagine if God did that to us? Do we not pray to be forgiven as we forgive others?
This is possible for a Christian, if we remain branches on the vine then His life-giving, forgiveness-giving, love-giving food will flow to us and through us. We will do His works. Including loving our spouse as He loves His.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
LOVE SO AMAZING
Greetings
quote:
We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings
and says, "I will never take you back for I love another. I have made a covenant with another" Imagine if God did that to us?
Do we not pray to be forgiven as we forgive others?
quote:
and says, "I will never take you back for I love another. I have made a covenant with another" Imagine if God did that to us?
I cant imagine that, because God is in control and God never changes
quote:
We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings
I for one find is useless to pray against wherever God has ordained by the laws He has put in motion, if any walls are created, then He created them
Job 11:10 If he cut off, and shut up, or gather together, then who can hinder him?
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed "obey My voice"
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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