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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2010 6:57:27 PM
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Showmethetruth
Posts: 240
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
quote]ORIGINAL: Showmethetruth
quote:
This is different, Bryan. God does not make people homosexual, they CHOOSE to be.
God doesn't make people divorce and marry another, they CHOOSE to do it.
Umm, sometimes they don't have a choice.
It's true that they might not have a choice in the divorce, but they do in the remarriage.
quote:
It is not a defense for adultery. It is a legitmate statement. The bible does not call adultery an abomination. It is sin. Which we can be forgiven of.
True, but so is homosexuality. That can be forgiven, too...if it is repented of. The fact that something may or may not be labeled as an "abomination" doesn't mean it's OK. I'm sure God hate both of these as much as any other sins. You're statement makes one sin seem less serious to God than another.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
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ORIGINAL: Showmethetruth
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Even though God hates it, He has done it himself. BUT he gave all a chance through Christ. Read Jeremiah chapter 3.
Jeremiah 3:14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you"
This was AFTER the "divorce". The "divorce" didn't end the covenant they had together. They were just experiencing the negative aspects from violating it.
YEAH! He sent Christ. So, again you are wrong.
Yes it did end the covenant.
So you are saying that when Jeremiah spoke for God and said God had divorced them - at that moment - the covenant ended?
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2010 10:01:05 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
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quote:
it has been a powerful lie put forth from the father of all lies that the only thing we are to judge is judgmentalism.
quote:
I am not sure what that means....
BUT
If that is what one feels...
(I can tell one a little secret)....it isn’t coming from me.
I do not believe it is coming from you... that is the point.
John 8:44
44(A) You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.(B) He was a murderer from the beginning, and(C) has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.(D) When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
DaveW's comment here is right on...
quote:
No word of prophecy may contradict any scripture. If it does, it is not from God and MUST be rejected.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/23/2010 10:20:20 PM
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RYNODOG
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ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
Hello LG,
When does the adultery end? What event/change in heart/change in mind ends the adultery?
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
quote:
Greetings
Adultery always ends.... in the beginning
quote:
What event/change in heart/change in mind.... ends the adultery
quote:
= by our confession of Jesus as the Christ
It always been since the beginning
Peter's message at Pentecost...
37 Peter’s words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The message you preach...
LG replies, "confess Jesus as your Christ and your sin is sin no more."
Your message misses the first part... repentance. Yes, even this repentace is through the grace of God, however, Jesus is not our Savior until we cooperate with the grace and allow Him to be our Lord. He is not our Lord until we repent of our wicked ways.
Your message... leaving out true repentance...is a message from the father of all lies who desires us not to repent and turn from wicked ways. He deludes people into seeing no need of repentance. If there is no need for repentance then I do not repent. If I do not repent then I do not allow Christ to be Lord. If I do not allow Christ to be Lord then He is not my Savior. If He is not my Savior then my soul will be the devil's.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
< Message edited by RYNODOG -- 8/23/2010 10:27:33 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 6:40:30 AM
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DaveW
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LG, I did not understand your post at all.
_____________________________
Saphira went home from the hospital 11/2/11. She is VERY happy to be home. This pic was taken on her 4th birthday, just after another round of outpatient chemo.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 7:50:37 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Showmethetruth
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
quote]ORIGINAL: Showmethetruth
quote:
This is different, Bryan. God does not make people homosexual, they CHOOSE to be.
God doesn't make people divorce and marry another, they CHOOSE to do it.
Umm, sometimes they don't have a choice.
It's true that they might not have a choice in the divorce, but they do in the remarriage.
Actually, even if they get married again, it is not sin. Isn't that what Paul says? I believeis he does.
There is no such thing as RE marriage unless the person is getting married to the person they are divorced from again.
quote:
quote:
It is not a defense for adultery. It is a legitmate statement. The bible does not call adultery an abomination. It is sin. Which we can be forgiven of.
True, but so is homosexuality. That can be forgiven, too...if it is repented of. The fact that something may or may not be labeled as an "abomination" doesn't mean it's OK. I'm sure God hate both of these as much as any other sins. You're statement makes one sin seem less serious to God than another.
That is not what I said. and you make it seem like God won't forgive a person for getting married again after a divorce and that is not truth. You say they must divorce to show repentance. That is not truth. Need I say more?
If a person who is a homosexual can be forgiven, then so can a person who is married again. The difference is that since homosexuality is a life style and abomination to god, they MUST stop to be forgiven. No where in the Bible does it say a person must divorce from their current spouse to show repentance.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
ORIGINAL: Showmethetruth
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ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Even though God hates it, He has done it himself. BUT he gave all a chance through Christ. Read Jeremiah chapter 3.
Jeremiah 3:14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you"
This was AFTER the "divorce". The "divorce" didn't end the covenant they had together. They were just experiencing the negative aspects from violating it.
YEAH! He sent Christ. So, again you are wrong.
Yes it did end the covenant.
So you are saying that when Jeremiah spoke for God and said God had divorced them - at that moment - the covenant ended?
No, I did not say that. Go back and read Jeremiah again. It says that when God makes the NEW covenant, he will accept Israel back. I am saying we are living in the NEW now and the only way is to BELIEVE Christ is the son of God just as the disciples told the soldier what he had to do to be saved. That my friend is the true gospel. When that Happens we are given a new heart, Christ! and HE removes the things that should not be there. We are told to confess our sins-That is what repent means.
A new mind and a new heart! Christ does this for us. WE can't do it ourselves. That is why so many Christians fall back. They think they can stop all by themselves to show repentance. BUT we can't. Christ in us increases and we decrease and thus we stop sinning. We learn what Sin really is.
BUT, telling a person to divorce is NOT righteous judgement. GOD would not tell that person to SIN to cover or show repentance for another sin.
That goes against his word because God is NOT the author of sin. You are saying that he is.
Basically God says, "I forgive you. NEVER do this again" He doesn't tell us we can take back something that is already finished.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 2:06:28 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
Joined: 3/15/2010
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quote:
It's true that they might not have a choice in the divorce, but they do in the remarriage.
quote:
Actually, even if they get married again, it is not sin. Isn't that what Paul says? I believeis he does.[/ quote]
1) Adultery is sin (unrepentant adulterers do not see eternal life)
2) Jesus says that to put away your wife and marry another is adultery
3) Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, does not contradict Christ
4) Any interpretation that has Paul saying that to put away your wife and marry another IS NOT adultery... that interpretation is incorrect.
Again, Jesus clearly says that marrying another is adultery. You make the claim that it is not continuous adultery. When does that adultery end?
quote:
Jesus says that if we ask we shall receive
gmcspice, please expand on this a bit. Here is a situation. Very easily could be a real life...
Let's say John and Carrol are married in 1995, in a church, both professing to be Christians. John enters the millitary and heads overseas. He returns in three years to find Carrol has been in a bike accident. John doesn't like how the new Carrol looks so he divorces her. John then marries Cindy, who he finds more attractive. John and Cindy celebrate their marriage at a church on 5/29/99. On 8/29/99 John asks God to forgive him for divorcing Carrol. On 11/29/99 John asks God to forgive him for committing adultery by marrying Cindy. He believes this is enough and continues to be married to Cindy, because she is still more attractive than Carrol, who is remaining faithful to her "until death do us part" and "as long as we both shall live" promises.
Was John and Cindy's relationship ever adultery?
If it was adultery, when did the adultery end?
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 3:20:53 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2408
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
it has been a powerful lie put forth from the father of all lies that the only thing we are to judge is judgmentalism.
quote:
I am not sure what that means....
BUT
If that is what one feels...
(I can tell one a little secret)....it isn’t coming from me.
I do not believe it is coming from you... that is the point.
John 8:44
44(A) You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.(B) He was a murderer from the beginning, and(C) has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.(D) When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
DaveW's comment here is right on...
quote:
No word of prophecy may contradict any scripture. If it does, it is not from God and MUST be rejected.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
Greetings
quote:
I do not believe it is coming from you... that is the point.
I didnt say this...
it has been a powerful lie put forth from the father of all lies that the only thing we are to judge is judgmentalism.
I one believes they need to be that witness, then let me try to offer up a good start
John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.Here Jesus is making a comparison in the context that He came to do His father’s will
SO we have a very good study here to learn the differences between will and desire
He was a murderer from the beginning,
This is very interesting, nowhere did we see the devil murdering someone from the beginning?
So Jesus is speaking plainly by the revealed truth making a truth in comparison, in that the desire they represent in murdering, is a spiritual thing...
and since they could not comprehend Jesus words, in their sprit , they lash with the only thing they do know that was intent on crushing His spirit ...or in the context ...He was a murderer from the beginning, is to murder His Spirit.
Psa 64:5
(Or in other words....they were trying to make Him feel bad, the same thing the cry babies of the world these days... related to hurting my feelings)
SO let’s put it in order
Jesus saying to them
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.
Now it would be a good thing and take peek in the scripture and take a good look at the desires of the devil and what it is “intended to produce” and weigh THAT it against truth.... and the intent truth it is to produce
That’s simple...
Jesus said we will know the truth and the truth will set one free from our desires, where are desires where it is from the devil ... in like manner....whose desire is mentioned above... and is to murder spiritually.
Therefore.... truth does attempt to crush the spirit but dose just the opposite.... and that is to encourage
So when we witness properly ... the intent always follows Deu 3:28
SO let’s put it in order
Jesus saying to them
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.
When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Therefore If one reads the context of John 8 by the spiritual application and NOT BY the flesh, the above in bold speaks for itself... by the very same way Jesus was exposing in THEM
When he lies, he speaks out of his own character,
So basically......as Iron sharpens Iron little brother...
If one like yourself, for example, feels the need to witness to someone whom they assume has not the Spirit of God living in them.... and is an adulterer...
......Then one should at least try..... to keep John 8:44 in its basic context ABOVE....so they or someone like me... can fell convicted....
and THEN encourage them in the Lord 
(It Rides on the same principals of salvation)
quote:
it has been a powerful lie put forth from the father of all lies that the only thing we are to judge is judgmentalism. No, first of all... there is no such thing,
And second, is the Bible says that we do not judge those who are outside, conviction comes by the Spirit of God by who we judge those who are inside
NOW
Let’s take the examples you have already provided over and over again,
AND (remember I’m the huckleberry)
.....What that means ... is absolutely nothing offends me in the first place, (so don’t let it be in ones hearing that it does) so.... I am the best one for the job ... so to speak!...because I can handle it!! 
So let’s take and gather up all those little associations made towards my way ... and ask this question
If one so strongly agrees that I am, for an example an adulterer and unrepentant, then am I ...inside or outside ??
quote:
it has been a powerful lie put forth from the father of all lies that the only thing we are to judge is judgmentalism.
If I am outside.... then why is one judging it?
..............Because the Bible says in the NT Epistles’ that we ARE NOT to judge those who are outside, conviction comes by the Spirit of God ....by whom we judge those who are ....inside
If I am outside ...then why is one saying things like that in the above quote?
One can't witness to a person who is outside by the Spirit of God
It’s a.......... contraction,
But that seems to be all one has to offer in support of marrying and after divorce,
Can one offer up anything that is not in contradiction.... so I can at the least weigh it against the word that has been given to me????
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 8/24/2010 3:26:59 PM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed "obey My voice"
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 3:37:28 PM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
Joined: 12/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
It's true that they might not have a choice in the divorce, but they do in the remarriage.
quote:
Actually, even if they get married again, it is not sin. Isn't that what Paul says? I believe is he does.
1) Adultery is sin (unrepentant adulterers do not see eternal life)
2) Jesus says that to put away your wife and marry another is adultery
3) Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, does not contradict Christ
4) Any interpretation that has Paul saying that to put away your wife and marry another IS NOT adultery... that interpretation is incorrect.
Again, Jesus clearly says that marrying another is adultery. You make the claim that it is not continuous adultery. When does that adultery end?
quote:
Jesus says that if we ask we shall receive
gmcspice, please expand on this a bit. Here is a situation. Very easily could be a real life...
Let's say John and Carrol are married in 1995, in a church, both professing to be Christians. John enters the military and heads overseas. He returns in three years to find Carrol has been in a bike accident. John doesn't like how the new Carrol looks so he divorces her. John then marries Cindy, who he finds more attractive. John and Cindy celebrate their marriage at a church on 5/29/99. On 8/29/99 John asks God to forgive him for divorcing Carrol. On 11/29/99 John asks God to forgive him for committing adultery by marrying Cindy. He believes this is enough and continues to be married to Cindy, because she is still more attractive than Carrol, who is remaining faithful to her "until death do us part" and "as long as we both shall live" promises.
Was John and Cindy's relationship ever adultery?
If it was adultery, when did the adultery end?
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
First, John is not a Christian. I say this because Jesus tells us that we will know a Christian by the fruit they bare.
John divorced his wife for any reason. So, like LG said, he is outside  .
So, he is entitled to utilize deut. 24. He cannot return to his first wife because he has been married again.
Since he is now an unbeliever, Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians that if an unbeliever wants to leave, then they may go. The believer is not held accountable for what he did. And she may not take him back because he is married to someone else.
The adultery ends when John asks God to forgive him and he decides that he will not sin again like he did with his first wife by divorcing her for no reason. At that time his heart was hard. He must NOT harden it against his new wife because he would be sinning again.
Like I explained to you the Gospel. The soldier asked the disciples, "What must I do to be saved? They replied believe in Jesus Christ and you shall be saved". So, I know you think it is not that simple but the disciples explain it to us.
John shows his repentance for divorce by not getting divorced again.
It is that simple, Bryan. Whether you want to believe it or not, it is.
Also, John must reap what he sowed by divorcing his first wife. Which means not being able to go back to her because he married again. He is defiled to her and cannot be with her anymore.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 3:42:08 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2408
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
It's true that they might not have a choice in the divorce, but they do in the remarriage.
quote:
Actually, even if they get married again, it is not sin. Isn't that what Paul says? I believe is he does.
1) Adultery is sin (unrepentant adulterers do not see eternal life)
2) Jesus says that to put away your wife and marry another is adultery
3) Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, does not contradict Christ
4) Any interpretation that has Paul saying that to put away your wife and marry another IS NOT adultery... that interpretation is incorrect.
Again, Jesus clearly says that marrying another is adultery. You make the claim that it is not continuous adultery. When does that adultery end?
quote:
Jesus says that if we ask we shall receive
gmcspice, please expand on this a bit. Here is a situation. Very easily could be a real life...
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
First, John is not a Christian. I say this because Jesus tells us that we will know a Christian by the fruit they bare.
Greetings
quote:
First, John is not a Christian. I say this because Jesus tells us that we will know a Christian by the fruit they bare.
Exactly!!! Good Job GM
Repentance is definitely defined by the fruit thereof, the other side seems to espouse that the fruit is there beforehand?
I wish I had a tree like that in my Garden... wishfull thinking!
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed "obey My voice"
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 3:52:11 PM
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Rooted
Posts: 24
Joined: 7/16/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
I agree with this post, Rooted, not all agreements are covenants. I think to like you said it is because the person(s) involved are not relying on God.
It comes down to what is realy in their hearts. Most people when they get married say for better or worse, yet in their hearts they really only mean for the better. I believe that is why Jesus mentions the hardness of the heart, too.
Sad, really.
Hi Gmcspice,
Somehow I missed your response to my post. My apologies. I'm glad that you also agree as to what the message of the Bible is in this particular passage. There are probably more things in the Word on which we agree on, though we won't know because it is not part of the topic here. However, even though we disagree on a major doctrinal issue, thankfully God is not finished with us yet, we are all works in progress.
And yes, I agree with this particular point of yours below (your other points excluded). A friend of mine shared with me that Re xxxxxxxx is re-doing something. However, it is not entirely correct to say a oneflesh couple who reunites with each other is remarrying as their oneflesh marriage was never dissolved by physical death. The term to use here for such an action and event is to renew their vows. Remarriage is a term the world (with the modern day church following suit) adopted to make an adulterous relationship sound better.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
There is no such thing as RE marriage unless the person is getting married to the person they are divorced from again.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 4:08:41 PM
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Rooted
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Joined: 7/16/2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: northstar
quote:
What is it that defiles her? It can only be the second marriage. She wasn't defiled before that.
Hello Northstar,
I agree one hundred percent with the above. And I personally know other followers of Jesus Christ (the One who defines a subsequent 'marriage' while a oneflesh spouse still lives as adultery) who also saw this.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 4:47:19 PM
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Showmethetruth
Posts: 240
Joined: 4/7/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
When does the adultery end? What event/change in heart/change in mind ends the adultery?
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
You keep asking and no one answers, so I'll try. The event/change in mind that must take place to end the adultery is when someone realizes that they have gone against the clear teaching of Jesus Christ, given to us through the Holy Bible. They understand that whether they were taught that it was OK, or they were ignorant of the scriptures, at some point they were disobedient to them. When this realization takes place, they understand that they still have an ongoing covenant with their original spouse and God is a witness and sealer of that covenant (Mal 2:14). They realize that by marrying another following a divorce, they are, in the words of Jesus, committing adultery by being in a relationship with someone other than their covenant spouse (Matthew 5:32, 19:9, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18, Romans 7:3). They realize that the Word says they are bound (joined, tied) to that person until death (Romans 7:2-3 , 1 Cor 7:39). They realize that if they initiated the divorce or not, obedience to the scriptures would have them remain unmarried or be reconciled to their spouse (1 Cor 7:10-11). While it might be hard to remain single the rest of their life, if need be, loving Jesus and pursuing the Kingdom of Heaven is evidenced by obedience to Him (Matthew 19:12, John 14:15, 21, 23). They would realize that since they are bound to their covenant spouse as long as they are both living, and only death can free them, they cannot continue in their unlawful adulterous relationship (Matt 14:4, Mark 6:17-18). They would understand that as hard as it might be to grasp, their marriage was considered adultery, and God would not be a party in the commission of the sin of adultery. With that being the case, their marriage was not joined by God, but seen as by Him in the same light as any other sinful relationship, similar to the cohabitation of an unmarried couple. They would realize that true repentance from any sin includes choosing to end the practice of that sin, not celebrating and continuing in it (Romans 6:1,15). Due to the civil legality and other aspects of being "married", civil legalities would be involved in dissolving the relationship as they chose to part with each other in an effort to be obedient to God and turn from the sin of adultery. They would feel remorse for the sin and for the emotional pain that would be felt, but they would realize that obedience to Christ is their number one priority, and sometimes that involves forsaking some things and enduring trials and difficulties (Matthew 16:24-25). When one has realized the above and taken these steps, I believe God would be eagerly willing to forgive them and embrace them with open arms (Luke 15:17-24)
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 6:46:20 PM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
Joined: 12/26/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Showmethetruth
quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
When does the adultery end? What event/change in heart/change in mind ends the adultery?
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
You keep asking and no one answers, so I'll try. The event/change in mind that must take place to end the adultery is when someone realizes that they have gone against the clear teaching of Jesus Christ, given to us through the Holy Bible. They understand that whether they were taught that it was OK, or they were ignorant of the scriptures, at some point they were disobedient to them. When this realization takes place, they understand that they still have an ongoing covenant with their original spouse and God is a witness and sealer of that covenant (Mal 2:14). They realize that by marrying another following a divorce, they are, in the words of Jesus, committing adultery by being in a relationship with someone other than their covenant spouse (Matthew 5:32, 19:9, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18, Romans 7:3). They realize that the Word says they are bound (joined, tied) to that person until death (Romans 7:2-3 , 1 Cor 7:39). They realize that if they initiated the divorce or not, obedience to the scriptures would have them remain unmarried or be reconciled to their spouse (1 Cor 7:10-11). While it might be hard to remain single the rest of their life, if need be, loving Jesus and pursuing the Kingdom of Heaven is evidenced by obedience to Him (Matthew 19:12, John 14:15, 21, 23). They would realize that since they are bound to their covenant spouse as long as they are both living, and only death can free them, they cannot continue in their unlawful adulterous relationship (Matt 14:4, Mark 6:17-18). They would understand that as hard as it might be to grasp, their marriage was considered adultery, and God would not be a party in the commission of the sin of adultery. With that being the case, their marriage was not joined by God, but seen as by Him in the same light as any other sinful relationship, similar to the cohabitation of an unmarried couple. They would realize that true repentance from any sin includes choosing to end the practice of that sin, not celebrating and continuing in it (Romans 6:1,15). Due to the civil legality and other aspects of being "married", civil legalities would be involved in dissolving the relationship as they chose to part with each other in an effort to be obedient to God and turn from the sin of adultery. They would feel remorse for the sin and for the emotional pain that would be felt, but they would realize that obedience to Christ is their number one priority, and sometimes that involves forsaking some things and enduring trials and difficulties (Matthew 16:24-25). When one has realized the above and taken these steps, I believe God would be eagerly willing to forgive them and embrace them with open arms (Luke 15:17-24)
#1 I did answer it and so did LG. He just did not accept our answers because it is not what he believes nor is it what you believe either.
#2 They cannot get back together once an intervening marriage has existed. The Bible says so.
I told him the adultery ends when the person confesses their sin. Remember, once sin is committed it is finished it ends in death unless the person confesses and repents.
And since one cannot take back what they have already finished, how is it that one repents of it?
By not committing it again.
The homosexual must not commit homosexuality again,
The murderer must not commit murder again.
The fornicator must not commit fornication again.
The adulterer must not commit adultery again.
The thief must not steal again.
AND.....
The divorcee must not divorce again. That is proper repentance. That is what turning from sin truly means.
NOT committing the act they are guilty of ever again.
WHY and how do I come to conclusion?
because the bible clearly tells us what sin is and when it is finished it leads to death. Only confession can change it. Only not ever doing it again can change it.
Only these things done with and in Christ can change it.
Repentance puts us right back where we started from... The beginning as LG put it. God forgives us and forgets it. Only those who keep committing divorce and marrying again have not truly repented.
If God forgets our sins then he surely forgets that you divorced your former spouse. He gives us a chance to show in that new marriage what we did not know in the first one.
We get a clean slate to never commit these acts again because Jesus tells us he came to take away the sins of the world. Take away the sins of those who believe in HIM.
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To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 6:53:57 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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It's hard to believe that Christians can even debate such a subject.
God considers a married couple husband and wife until one of them dies. (Gen 2)
The man has the biblical right to divorce his wife if she is unfaithful. (Matthew)
Let's clear up a few things.
Back in Jesus' day, a woman had NO legal right to divorce her husband...only the man could do the divorcing. She could leave, but not legally divorce him.
If the man divorced his wife and married another woman for any reason other than her committing adultery (Matthew), Jesus said "that man has committed adultry". (Matthew, Mark, Luke)
Any divorced woman under any circumstance is committing adultery if she remarries before her first husband dies. (Matthew, Mark, Luke)
As hard as it might sound, but the saying is true...a divorced woman is damaged goods. No Christian man can touch her unless she is also a widow.
Paul said in the case of an unbelieving spouse wanting to leave a Christian....to let him or her leave if they desired to...the Christian in this case would not be bound....the non-believer was already condemned. The Christian in this case could bibilically remarry.
That is where it ends....period.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 7:09:01 PM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
Joined: 12/26/2008
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quote:
As hard as it might sound, but the saying is true...a divorced woman is damaged goods. No Christian man can touch her unless she is also a widow.
You have got to be kidding me!
I can't believe this is coming from the mouth of a Christian.
According to Christ, when we come to him, we become NEW creatures. Where does it say a divorced Christian woman is damaged goods?
If she is a Christian woman, she will not commit adultery.
And what if her husband is the one who committed adultery and divorced her? Is she still damaged Goods?
I think not. That man is not a Christian if he committed adultery and divorced his wife there for that means #1 SHE IS NOT DAMAGED GOODS!
#2 It falls under what you stated from Paul.
Other than this particular statement, I liked your post.
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To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 8:28:48 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
As hard as it might sound, but the saying is true...a divorced woman is damaged goods. No Christian man can touch her unless she is also a widow.
You have got to be kidding me!
I can't believe this is coming from the mouth of a Christian.
According to Christ, when we come to him, we become NEW creatures. Where does it say a divorced Christian woman is damaged goods?
If she is a Christian woman, she will not commit adultery.
And what if her husband is the one who committed adultery and divorced her? Is she still damaged Goods?
I think not. That man is not a Christian if he committed adultery and divorced his wife there for that means #1 SHE IS NOT DAMAGED GOODS!
#2 It falls under what you stated from Paul.
Other than this particular statement, I liked your post.
Just saying whats clearly in scripture
Matthew 5:31-33 (New International Version)
Divorce
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[a] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Would you want to find a new man just to cause him to commit adultery?
As for my comments on Pauls comments.....
A Christian should NEVER marry an unbeliever. God absolutely commands against it.
Paul's comments were for a certain time when so many people were coming to Christ. Paul would go to a new place and perhaps only one of the couple would become a Christian. That would leave the other spouse wondering if he or she should divorce the non-believer. Paul's comments are for these people....NOT for a Christian who disobeys God and deliberately marries an unbeliever....however....there is nothing you can do if the unbeliever walks out...
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 9:11:38 PM
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pd57
Posts: 166
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what.
< Message edited by pd57 -- 8/25/2010 1:24:20 PM >
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 9:27:08 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2547
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
As hard as it might sound, but the saying is true...a divorced woman is damaged goods. No Christian man can touch her unless she is also a widow.
You have got to be kidding me!
I can't believe this is coming from the mouth of a Christian.
According to Christ, when we come to him, we become NEW creatures. Where does it say a divorced Christian woman is damaged goods?
If she is a Christian woman, she will not commit adultery.
And what if her husband is the one who committed adultery and divorced her? Is she still damaged Goods?
I think not. That man is not a Christian if he committed adultery and divorced his wife there for that means #1 SHE IS NOT DAMAGED GOODS!
#2 It falls under what you stated from Paul.
Other than this particular statement, I liked your post.
Just saying whats clearly in scripture
Matthew 5:31-33 (New International Version)
Divorce
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[a] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Would you want to find a new man just to cause him to commit adultery?
As for my comments on Pauls comments.....
A Christian should NEVER marry an unbeliever. God absolutely commands against it.
Paul's comments were for a certain time when so many people were coming to Christ. Paul would go to a new place and perhaps only one of the couple would become a Christian. That would leave the other spouse wondering if he or she should divorce the non-believer. Paul's comments are for these people....NOT for a Christian who disobeys God and deliberately marries an unbeliever....however....there is nothing you can do if the unbeliever walks out...
There are a few words that you seem to have missed when reading that verse out of Matthew, I have underlined them in your post above so that they might be seen a little clearer when you read them again.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 9:45:42 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
As hard as it might sound, but the saying is true...a divorced woman is damaged goods. No Christian man can touch her unless she is also a widow.
You have got to be kidding me!
I can't believe this is coming from the mouth of a Christian.
According to Christ, when we come to him, we become NEW creatures. Where does it say a divorced Christian woman is damaged goods?
If she is a Christian woman, she will not commit adultery.
And what if her husband is the one who committed adultery and divorced her? Is she still damaged Goods?
I think not. That man is not a Christian if he committed adultery and divorced his wife there for that means #1 SHE IS NOT DAMAGED GOODS!
#2 It falls under what you stated from Paul.
Other than this particular statement, I liked your post.
Just saying whats clearly in scripture
Matthew 5:31-33 (New International Version)
Divorce
31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[a] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Would you want to find a new man just to cause him to commit adultery?
As for my comments on Pauls comments.....
A Christian should NEVER marry an unbeliever. God absolutely commands against it.
Paul's comments were for a certain time when so many people were coming to Christ. Paul would go to a new place and perhaps only one of the couple would become a Christian. That would leave the other spouse wondering if he or she should divorce the non-believer. Paul's comments are for these people....NOT for a Christian who disobeys God and deliberately marries an unbeliever....however....there is nothing you can do if the unbeliever walks out...
There are a few words that you seem to have missed when reading that verse out of Matthew, I have underlined them in your post above so that they might be seen a little clearer when you read them again.
What Jesus is saying here is that the man can divorce his wife if SHE is unfaithful...If she cheated on him, then she has already committed adultery making your point invalid. The man can remarry if his wife cheats on him. We need to remember that it was ok for a man to have more then one wife....it was not ok for a wife to have 2 husbands. In fact...in OT times, the woman would have been put to death along with the 'other' man for sleeping with someone other than her husband....so whether or not she can remarry is irrelevant since under most circumstances she would have been put to death.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 10:10:14 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2547
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pd57
Man you guys still don't get it! all this arguing & contention. Just read below and use your mind!
Words Mean Things
For the sake of discussion let us suppose the following.
What if a concerned friend of yours came up to you and told you that a couple down the street had separated. Would you need clarification as to what separated meant? Would you ask your friend if the couple separated from your street to go on a romantic holiday or if they were now divorced or would you just understand that they had stopped living together?
How about when someone comes up to you and starts speaking. Do you normally need to hear 3 or 4 sentences or more before you can assemble enough context to understand what they are saying? That would be the exception not the rule.
There are some who suggest that the scripture is written in just such a way. I heard such nonsense about ten years ago and have recently heard it again. The next quote is just such nonsense.
"The root fallacy explains that you can gain no special truth behind the text by looking at the greek word behind it, because the word's english equivalent is not solely dependent on the definition of the greek word.
Greek words do not have specific meanings, they have what is called a semantic range, narrowed by the rest of the words in the sentence until a specific decision is made about the translation of the word."
I believe the above is utter nonsense! Is it partly an apology for poor translations? Perhaps it was an attempt at justification for the King James Version? It may also be a way of neutralizing one's responsibility to scripture? According to this many Bible software companies have wasted their time as their software is specifically designed to let one dig deeper into the language behind the English translation. Let us look at one Greek word specifically.
G630
apoluō
ap-ol-oo'-o
From G575 and G3089; to free fully, that is, (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon, or (specifically) divorce:- (let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty.
I included the entire entry from Strong's. Remember that anything after the :- is not a part of the definition, but is merely a listing of ways the word was translated in the KJV. Also remember that Mr Strong stated that the first word is the most reliable word, in this case free fully, while the most radical understanding is the last word, in this case (specifically) divorce. I would add here that it sounds like Mr Strong, while acknowledging how the KJV translated words, would disagree with the nonsense statement I quoted above. Based on my understanding the radical definition in this case should not be included.
Next let us show with the use of Englishman's that in fact the KJV is relatively consistent with the translation of apoluo except in one specific location and not in all context that is similar. Perhaps they were trying to protect church doctrine and hide the truth? Take a look at the list. The words translated from apoluo will be in bold print.
Matt 1:19 minded to put her away privily.
Matt 5:31 Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement
Matt 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (This is the only occurrence of the word divorce and should have been rendered put away.)
Matt 14:15 send the multitude away
Matt 14:22 while he sent the multitudes away.
Matt 14:23 And when he had sent the multitudes away
Matt 15:23 Send her away
Matt 15:32 I will not send them away fasting
Matt 15:39 And he sent away the multitude
Matt 18:27 loosed him, and forgave him the debt
Matt 19:3 Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Matt 19:7 Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Matt 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Matt 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Matt 27:15 the governor was wont to release unto the people
Matt 27:17 Whom will ye that I release unto you?
Matt 27:21 that I release unto you?
Matt 27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them
Mark 6:36 Send them away, that they may go
Mark 6:45 while he sent away the people.
Mark 8:3 And if I send them away fasting
Mark 8:9 and he sent them away.
Mark 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
Mark 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mark 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mark 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Mark 15:6 Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner
Mark 15:9 Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
Mark 15:11 that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
Mark 15:15 willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them
Luke 2:29 lettest thou thy servant depart in peace
Luke 6:37 forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luke 8:38 but Jesus sent him away
Luke 9:12 Send the multitude away
Luke 13:12 Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Luke 14:4 and healed him, and let him go;
Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
Luke 23:16 I will therefore chastise him, and release him.
Luke 23:18 Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas:
Luke 23:20 willing to release Jesus
Luke 23:22 I will therefore chastise him, and let him go.
Luke 23:25 And he released unto them him
John 18:39 that I should release unto you ... that I release unto you
John 19:10 and have power to release thee?
John 19:12 Pilate sought to release him
Acts 3:13 when he was determined to let him go.
Acts 4:21 they let them go
Acts 4:23 And being let go
Acts 5:40 and let them go.
Acts 13:3 they sent them away.
Acts 15:30 So when they were dismissed
Acts 15:33 they were let go in peace
Acts 16:35 saying, Let those men go.
Acts 16:36 sent to let you go
Acts 17:9 they let them go.
Acts 19:41 he dismissed the assembly.
Acts 23:22 then let the young man depart
Acts 26:32 This man might have been set at liberty
Acts 28:18 would have let me go
Acts 28:25 they departed, after that
Heb 13:23 Timothy is set at liberty
Hopefully you noted that only one time in all of these verses was the word apoluo translated divorce. Some translations, such as the NIV, are much worse on this. The way I see it if divorce is an accurate translation in Matthew 5:32 then it is also valid in any of the other verses. The word divorce is a legal term. So if it is valid to translate apoluo as such then one must admit that in Acts 19:41, for example, that the entire assembly was married to the town clerk of Ephesis and then divorced by him.
My point is that those who would support the idea that divorce is what is being discussed in Matthew 5:32 do not understand the difference between being separated without being divorced and being divorced. Did you notice Matthew 19:7? How much sense would it make to say "to give a writing of divorcement, and to divorce her"?
Well there are a couple articles at this web site on the particulars of divorce and adulteration. I hope you will find them useful and just how simple the scriptures are to understand if you have the right meanings of the words.
This is an excellent example of why it can be dangerous to consult a lexicon when one has not studied the language. These tools can be helpful when someone wants to understand the entire semantic range of a particular root, but it is useless for trying to narrow the meaning to only one choice from the many given; these tools were NEVER designed to be used this way. And the definitions given in a Strong's lexicon do not contain enough information for even someone skilled in the biblical languages to use in this way. A complete Hebrew or Greek lexicon will include many of the grammar notes in the definition that are critical to understanding the meaning of a particular usage; the Strong's lexicon simply does not have enough room to include this information. The "rules" given in this prior post for determining the best meaning of a word from the definitions given in a lexicon are simply ludicrous! The reality is that Greek and Hebrew words are listed in the lexicon by only their lexical form, but in the text they have case endings, conjugations, etc... that all affect the meaning of the word. For example, the Hebrew root אכל can mean to eat, to be eaten, to feed, to be fed, to burn, to be burned, etc.., etc..., etc... many of these meanings are dependent on the auxiliary letters that are added to the root as either prefixes, infixes, or suffixes. Here are some examples of how this root may be found as it would be used in the text:
אכל
אוכלת
יאכל
נאכל
איאכל
האכלתי
מאכיל
Each of these conjugations limit the possible meanings of the root, and in the context a sentence the possible meanings will be even more limited. However, each of these will be tied to the exact same Strong's reference because they all share the exact same root (i.e. lexical form); Strong's will list all of the definitions I gave (and more), but the particular use in a sentence will limit the possibility to only a subset of the definitions that Strong's lists, and in MANY of the cases I listed above, the first, second, third, or even forth definition listed WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE!!! Additionally, there are contextual issues, idioms, etc... that are important to understand before the meaning can be understood in a particular passage. For example, if I say in Hebrew "He did it standing on one leg", I actually mean, "he did it in an impossibly short period of time."
In short, choosing the first word in a list given in a lexicon is an extremely poor way of understanding the meaning of the text. There are very good reasons why the translators of your English bible spent years learning the language before attempting to translate the text into English and anyone who believes that they can do a better job using a Strong's concordance and lexicon without learning the langauge has simply deceived themselves.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 10:21:47 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 213
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
There are very good reasons why the translators of your English bible spent years learning the language before attempting to translate the text into English and anyone who believes that they can do a better job using a Strong's concordance and lexicon without learning the langauge has simply deceived themselves.
benelchi...I agree 100%
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 10:22:47 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2547
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
What Jesus is saying here is that the man can divorce his wife if SHE is unfaithful...If she cheated on him, then she has already committed adultery making your point invalid. The man can remarry if his wife cheats on him. We need to remember that it was ok for a man to have more then one wife....it was not ok for a wife to have 2 husbands. In fact...in OT times, the woman would have been put to death along with the 'other' man for sleeping with someone other than her husband....so whether or not she can remarry is irrelevant since under most circumstances she would have been put to death.
I can mostly agree with the interpretation you offered; however, there are a few things that are in error. First, the death sentence for adultery was rarely (if ever) practiced within first century Judaism. If a woman cheated, she was divorced and her dowry was kept, if she did not cheat, she could be divorced but her husband had to return her dowry as part of the divorce settlement. Second, divorced women (both those accused of adultery, and those who were not) were remarried quite often within the first century Jewish culture.
Jesus was pointing out that a divorce for any reason other than infidelity was invalid and a subsequent remarriage would have been an act of adultery. Because women in the first century could not easily support themselves, such a divorce would likely cause a woman to choose remarriage, causing her to commit an act of adultery.
Edited for clarification:
I do not believe that remarriage EVER constitutes an act of CONTINUOUS adultery (as some on this thread advocate). Marriages that begin under sinful circumstances (even as adulterous marriages) still begin a new marriage covenant and divorce is NEVER a means of repentance. Repentance may be necessary when a marriage was conceived in sin, but the covenant formed must still be honored.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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